The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
http://www.examiner.com/x-6537-Tampa...aler-backs-outNuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.
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"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."
-John Wooden -
Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
I don't see any way they will get out of the price, especially since he paid the $500 deposit already and is going to personally deliver the check for the balance to the dealer. They admitted their employee made a mistake. Well, sorry about your luck but that's not the winning bidder's problem. eBay states all over their site, seriously all over it, it's everywhere on every page and attached to the bottom of every auction, that ALL winning bids are legally binding contracts. That goes for the both the seller AND the buyer. Honor the price, and if you have to, fire the idiot or maybe just take some of his sales pay. The sad thing is the dealer will fight this to the point that the guy will have to hire a lawyer. Of course, it sounds like he might get it done pro bono but still.Comment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
I agree that they should be bound by the auction terms. Unfortunately, eBay will be of no help although for their credibility they should be of LOTS of help. eBay seems to be Teflon in these disputes. People just seem to accept it's buyer beware and that eBay is an innocent victim in the middle. In the end, as far as eBay is concerned their reply to him will be that he can leave negative feedback.Originally posted by travmil View Post
As for the bidder, he had no way to know the ad was a mistake. For all he knew the dealer was looking to sell this car to make space on the lot, help with cash flow, whatever. He could've lost the chance to buy several other cars while he was focused on this one so it's not like he can't claim to have suffered some penalty for the dealer refusing to honor this sale.
I don't know what markup is on this car but I doubt the dealer would be losing much in reality if he just honored the auction. And I'm no tax atty but I'd say there'd be a write off available to him for whatever that loss is.
But instead they're playing hardball and going to force this guy to hire an atty and push the issue. I wonder if all this forum buzz is really bad PR... or just an unintended viral form of advertising that is helping get their name out more than hurting it?
One problem this buyer has is potentially ending up in front of a judge that won't take eBay seriously, just say the guy should've known this was a mistake, and find for the dealer based on some tenuous legal argument. IMHO that wouldn't be a proper legal finding (based on what we think we know) but that hasn't stopped judges from ignoring the actual law before.
So this guy's expense in fighting this could quickly escalate if he doesn't win it early and has to go to the appeals process (where IMHO his chances raise to about 100%... but so does his time and expense in fighting at that level).
Of course in this day and age, any and all parts of this could be part of some viral advertising campaign that we've all just become pawns in. Create a bunch of buzz over this and then when the guy shows up with the final payment accept it and hand him the keys with big fanfare and an apology. The buyer could easily be real or a shill... and I did notice he has ZERO eBay transactions.Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.
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"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."
-John WoodenComment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
I bought a 7000.00 item on eBay back in Nov or Dec and shortly after the auction the seller messaged me to say he'd have to cancel the transaction because he'd already sold the item locally a couple of days prior. Probably, he didn't get what he expected for it from me but I have no idea. He should've canceled the auction as soon as he sold it (assuming he really did)... before any bids were placed.
This wasn't so blatantly low of a price that I was thinking I stole it or anything though.
Anyway, I didn't really want to agree to cancel the transaction. This was his problem, not mine. If he'd really sold it before the auction ended I couldn't expect him to sell it to me... OTOH... I did think the problem(s) that he had created should be between him an eBay. If I agreed to mutually cancel the transaction he was getting off the hook for transaction fees plus getting away with breaking the listing rules of the auction and selling off eBay.
So I emailed eBay about it.... and their answer was I could leave negative feedback. ...and agree to cancel the transaction.
In fact, it turned out if I didn't cancel the transaction then I'd end up a non-paying bidder... because if I didn't agree to cancel the transaction (which had to be a mutual agreement to cancel) then I'd be expected to pay for the item... even though the item I won fair and square was no longer available from the seller. ....eBay logic amazes me.
To my way of thinking, if a seller allows an auction to complete and has a winning buyer but the item was sold off eBay, eBay should still demand their transaction fees. That stance might help somewhat police these situations from happening. Their service provided that seller a buyer which is what they seek to do. It's not their fault the seller just used eBay as an advertising service and then bypassed their transaction fees to make an off eBay sale.
Any time a seller refuses to sell to a winning bidder it's always likely that the winning bidder bypassed other potential buys (that are now no longer available) to focus on that particular transaction.Last edited by Bball; 03-17-2010, 07:38 AM.Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.
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"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."
-John WoodenComment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
Trying to find an update around the web, apparently the guy is at the dealership RIGHT NOW trying to get his car.Comment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
That dealership is never and I mean NEVER going to give that guy the keys to that car ... without a court order.“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill
“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine AirdComment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
Well, I think they will probably give it to him. The dealership needs to give in and spin this positively for themselves now. This thing has gone viral. There are over 400 news agencies reporting this story all across the US. It's on countless forums, Facebook, Twitter, you name it. The dealer is also a 5 star Chrysler dealer which is VERY hard to obtain. If they get enough complaints they will lose that status, and the dealership will have to decide whether that's worth taking a $20k loss on. My guess is that they will take the loss given how huge this has gotten. The other option here is for Chrysler to step in and take care of it which would also be wise.Comment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
I just read that eBay Home and eBay Motors actions are not considered legally binding.
That might be the dealership's checkmate.“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill
“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine AirdComment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
Is it any different if on their actual listing they put this 'is a legal and binding contract"?Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
Also if you look at the listing at the top it says payment within 7 days yet at the bottom it says within 5 days.. kinda weird.
but i do remember reading about a genesis coupe and a bmw sold the exact same way and IIRC both of them got their cars for the price they bid.Comment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
Hmmm ... I don't know the answers. Interesting that others in similar situations have gotten their cars ...Originally posted by ThA HoyA View Post“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill
“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine AirdComment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
Yes, there has been precedence set.Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
Over 200 car enthusiast forums have banded together in support of the guy.
It's a sweet Challenger and I would fight for it too. I love the B5 Blue.Comment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
Precedence has not been set unless a COURT has said that the auto belongs in the hands of the bidder. Otherwise, this could just be a case of jumping off of a cliff because your friends are doing it.
On another level, there's just a little bit of "STICKIN' IT TO THE MAN" going on here that makes it a little distasteful. While a lot of money goes through dealerships, they aren't exactly Bill Gates level rich cats.
As a business owner, I would like to occasionally be given an opportunity to come to some middle ground on a handshake deal before thousands of people (largely uninformed and biased people who have only heard one side) start some kind of campaign.
Everyone knows that this is not the price of that car. That's why this bidder is SO excited. He thinks he can take advantage of someone's mistake and screw them over it. If this weren't "little guy vs. big guy" how would you feel about this mistake turning into some kind of robbery of $20,000?
Imagine your grandma has a guy come to fix the plumbing and he sees a guitar in the basement. He knows what it is and what it's worth. But grandma tells him "I suppose you can have that old guitar for $50." While he runs off to get $50, you come over. She tells you the story about how she's selling granddad's guitar for $50. This is where you tell her that granddad's guitar is worth at least $5000 and she can't sell it for less.
Now the guy comes over with $50. You tell him to go away, the guitar's not for sale anymore. He becomes belligerent and calls everyone around town telling him that "Haddie May Jones Cannot Be TRUSTED!!!"
Who's the jerk here?
Now, don't get upset at me for bringing an extreme example into this. I know that the stories aren't parallel. But I can't escape the notion that everybody thinks that because the dealership made a mistake, they should hand the guy twenty grand. no mistake is worth that in anything other than attorney's fees.
The "little guy" is just as capable of immoral behavior as the "big guy".
Canceling an auction sounds like a lesser sin than robbing someone of $20,000.“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill
“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine AirdComment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
My guess there's a lot of outcry about the dealer trying to get out of the deal because car dealers try to rip people off all the time - from extra 'paperwork' fees to extended warranties, to, well, just about anything.
They have a reputation as some of the slimiest, dishonest sales people anywhere.
I had a dealership manager, at a "5 star" dealer no less, basically hold my new car for 'ransom' because he decided he wanted to give me $2000 less on my trade than he originally promised.
If they 'accidentally' slip an extra $500 into my purchase contract and I sign it, they are going to say 'tough, you should have read it more carefully'. Well, in this case, they screwed up and should have read things more carefully.
Screw them.You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song
- Jimmy BuffettComment
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Re: EBay - Man wins bid on Challenger; Dealer refuses to pay up for their mistake...
Yes, for all I know this particular dealership is run as a not-for-profit to feed starving orphans and I'm punishing them for the sins of those other bad dealers. Oh well.
$20,000 of lost profit isn't going to put them into bankruptcy.You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song
- Jimmy BuffettComment
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