I have to ask

[Peck]

Ok, I know this is going to turn into an anti-JOB thread and frankly I'm ok with that, to a point.

But I have to ask.

At what point in time does it fall on the coach's shoulders for players continually taking bad shots?

Now don't get my question wrong, this does not absolve the players at all as some of them take shots that I will tell you make O'Brien's head want to explode.

But at what point in time does he become responsible for the shot selection?

I guess that is a two part question.

[Sookie]

Re: I have to ask

I don't think it's a "point in time thing" I think it depends on what the coach is telling them.

If JOB is yelling at whoever, everytime they take an awful shot..and they still continue to do it. It's not his fault.

However..if he continues to preach "quick threes" and the players take quick threes, then that's JOB's fault.

[Hoop]

Re: I have to ask

How's the the old saying go? The Coach don't take bad shots, make dumb turnovers, watch players go by them for layups. But, neither do well coached players.

I'm blaming it mostly on poor coaching and a flawed system that does not match the players strengths. I think most of our players have came from big time College Programs that value shot selection, good team play, and defense. The system he is trying to get them to play goes against everything they have already been taught, so confusion is going to reign IMO.

I'm betting the same folks, like me, who don't like the coach's style will blame JOB.

The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.

[travmil]

Re: I have to ask

Maybe they think they better take all the shots they can when they have the chance since they will more than likely be inexplicably benched and run off a string of DNP-CD's. You never know when you're gonna see the court for JOB unless you have the good fortune of being born Troy Murphy, then your golden.

[Twes]

Re: I have to ask

Doesn't it seem like it's time for a new coach.

I'm just sayin.

[Dr. Awesome]

Re: I have to ask

as some of them take shots that I will tell you make O'Brien's head want to explode.

*Sigh* If only that were possible. Not that I would wish harm on anyone, but man, if taking bad shots drove Obie away from this team, by all means, I'd be happy watching Hibbert chuck shots from half court all game long.

[Dr. Awesome]

Re: I have to ask

How's the the old saying go? The Coach don't take bad shots, make dumb turnovers, watch players go by them for layups. But, neither do well coached players.

I'm blaming it mostly on poor coaching and a flawed system that does not match the players strengths. I think most of our players have came from big time College Programs that value shot selection, good team play, and defense. The system he is trying to get them to play goes against everything they have already been taught, so confusion is going to reign IMO.

I'm betting the same folks, like me, who don't like the coach's style will blame JOB.

The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.

This is a great post, I couldn't agree more.

[PaceBalls]

Re: I have to ask

Beyond our coach's flawed system or the players being bad. We have also have horrible lineups being trotted out there. Hibbert and Troy or T-Roy as this monster has been called is just atrocious together. Mike Jr is also terrible at defense and if you get these three together it is just superterriblisticextrabadatrocious defense.

Then we also have players refusing to go into a Roy in the post. I saw Roy posted up a number of times and the guy who would normally feed him drive right past him for the turnover, or take a contested jumpshot. It's as if the players are runnign two different offenses. You have Roy posting up, and our wings running off screens cloggin everything up in a display of offensive futility.

So selfishness is a huge problem. All these things do eventually lead back to the coach for not tightening the reigns and instilling discipline to make the right play. And of course, it is on Jim for playing terrible lineups together.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: I have to ask

How's the the old saying go? The Coach don't take bad shots, make dumb turnovers, watch players go by them for layups. But, neither do well coached players.

I'm blaming it mostly on poor coaching and a flawed system that does not match the players strengths. I think most of our players have came from big time College Programs that value shot selection, good team play, and defense. The system he is trying to get them to play goes against everything they have already been taught, so confusion is going to reign IMO.

I'm betting the same folks, like me, who don't like the coach's style will blame JOB.

The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.

Agreed.

I was always taught "Take the best shot", not "Take the first shot available". I was always taught "Don't take a shot in transition", not "Pull up as soon as you cross the half-court line". I was always taught "Switch on D (which sucked, because I HATED it when I got stuck on a PG)", not "Stay with your man although another could be open". I was always taught "Wait for your Bigs (unless it's a 3 on 1 fastbreak) to get position", not "Shoot although all 5 players are on the perimeter". I was always taught "TALK ON DEFENSE", not ".......". I was always taught "Cut to the open space", not "Stand by the 3PT line". I was always taught "Use screens and picks", not "Stand by the 3PT line ".

Man, I think I would hate playing for JOB, unless I was a player who loved to jack up 3's not play defense.

[cdash]

Re: I have to ask

I've come to grips with the fact that Obie is going to finish out this season as head coach. I'm fine with that. But if this guy starts next season as the coach, then Bird would really be pushing my limits as a fan. When it's time to make a change, a change has to be made. Should Obie get the blame for all of this? Of course not, but it's time for a change.

[d_c]

Re: I have to ask

Just like any coach who was going to take this coaching job, JOB is a "throwaway coach".

As are 75% of the players on this roster.

[Unclebuck]

Re: I have to ask

.

The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.

No not the same debate, we haven't discussed this too often this season.

I might surprise you as I'm sure I'm in the hell or high water camp

Shot selection is largely a function of coaching. So if you think the Pacers are taking bad shots, blaming the coach is a reasonable response. A coach can put an end to it to a degree. If a player is taking bad shots, the coach can take that player out, and sit him on the bench.

Of course this opens up several different discusions about what is bad shot selection, I won't get into that here. You also have to consider whether the team has enough talent to get good shots to begin with. If 5 of us were to play a game against an NBA team, we would take horrible shots because we aren't capable of getting good shots. Obviously this is an extreme point that I'm using to make my point.

But if you believe the pacers take bad shots and therefore want to blame the coach, that is reasonable, one of the more reasonable approaches in this forum in awhile in egards to Jim O'Brien

[Unclebuck]

Re: I have to ask

Agreed.

I was always taught "Take the best shot", not "Take the first shot available". I was always taught "Don't take a shot in transition", not "Pull up as soon as you cross the half-court line". I was always taught "Switch on D (which sucked, because I HATED it when I got stuck on a PG)", not "Stay with your man although another could be open". I was always taught "Wait for your Bigs (unless it's a 3 on 1 fastbreak) to get position", not "Shoot although all 5 players are on the perimeter". I was always taught "TALK ON DEFENSE", not ".......". I was always taught "Cut to the open space", not "Stand by the 3PT line". I was always taught "Use screens and picks", not "Stand by the 3PT line ".

Man, I think I would hate playing for JOB, unless I was a player who loved to jack up 3's not play defense.

I want to expand this conversation beyond the pacers to the whole NBA. What you were taught is generally not what is taught in the NBA. Most teams want their best shooters taking transition threes as those are often the easiest threes their best players are going to get. With the 24 second shot clock and the great defenses in the NBA taking transition shots is a way of life

[the jaddler]

Re: I have to ask

I think all parties have to take responiblity. I feel that no player on any team should be able to have a free for all for shooting. It should be part of the team stratige. If a play just hands in his face and take a diffucult shoot...no biggie as long as they dont make a habit of it. Now if a player is taking bad shot after bad shot and never getting it to fall and we are not get the offensive board, then we are just persay handing the ball over to the other team....which as you all know if the other team scores more points then we do, we lose.....there for I say its Larry Birds fault for letting it be Jim Obriens fault for letting the players take those shots time after time!

[shags]

Re: I have to ask

Peck, I was thinking that as I was watching the Pacers destroy the Pistons.

Do the Pacers always play a, what I would describe, "run and chuck" offense? I mean, Troy Murphy, Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, Brandon Rush, they have absolutely no conscience. They shoot whenever they get it, it seems like. It can work if they're hitting their shots, and they get a below average team (like the current Pistons) to play their style, but a disciplined team (like the Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Sheed/Ben Pistons) would destroy them.

So do they always play like that, or was that an aberration?